Ryan Copeland, head baseball coach at the University of Illinois Springfield, joined us to talk about how technology helps his team win 40+ games a year, but how he finds a balance of old vs new school teaching. We discuss cameras like the Sony RX-10 and Edgertronic, Rapsodo, and go in depth about command and how it’s difficult to teach (and why). We also discuss diversity in baseball, how the Black Lives Matter movement has opened his eyes, and what baseball will look like going forward.

Follow up with Coach Copeland on Twitter here, and watch the video version of this episode (with camera footage) here.

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Transcript: EP51 – Ryan Copeland from U Illinois-Springfield Talks Slow-Mo Cameras, Rapsodo, High-Tech Training, Command and Diversity in the Dugout

Dan Blewett: All right. Welcome back. This is the morning. Brushback I’m your cohost. Dan Blewett. I’m joined here remotely by Bobby Stevens. Bobby, how are you?

Bobby Stevens: I’m great.

Dan Blewett: I’m great. Another good episode. And we’re joined here by a great guest. Ryan Copeland, a head coach at university of Illinois, Springfield, Ryan. What’s up, man.

Ryan Copeland: Doin good, trying to try to get through all this.

Dan Blewett: Yeah, Ryan’s uh, another repeat guest, um, from a couple of years back, at least probably what, two years now, something like that.

Ryan Copeland: I think it was December of 18. You came, you came to campus,

Dan Blewett: right? We did the in-person one. Yeah.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. The big time set up with all the cameras and the student union.

Yeah.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. That was, that was a, when I was just getting into like, trying to figure out all this different stuff. I think I lost footage from like one camera, but in general, I thought it worked pretty well, but that’s part of than people realize to get all those different views. And I don’t know.

Ryan Copeland: It was, it was really good.

It was enjoyable. I think we were on the air for like two hours. Well, believe it or not, there’s been multiple recruits and their parents, like some of the office were meeting and they like, Hey coach, I want to mention, I listened to a podcast that you were on. And, um, you know, you know, a guy named Dan beloved.

Yeah. And then like, yeah, I saw it on Spotify. So I listened to it while we were driving here. Okay. I hope I didn’t say anything stupid.

Dan Blewett: Well, that was a really deep dive on, on like pitch sequencing and like lot of stuff. So that’s been part of like the overall. Plan with some of the podcasts with like guys like yourself, like I search engine, optimize it for your name and all that stuff.

So it’s almost almost certain that if anyone’s trying to research your school, they’ll find you and find that podcast, which I think is a benefit because yeah, we talked about a lot of stuff in that, in that episode. Um, but for those of you who don’t know coach Copeland, he was a, uh, Illinois state.

Division one player you’re drafted, played a couple years or a bunch of years in the minor leagues. And one of your big things is that you had impeccable control, which I do want to talk about today. And you’re also coach Copeland is really great with technology and finding the blend of all the stuff that everyone seems to bicker about on Twitter.

So people are always bickering about velocity, and this is like old school versus new school. But especially if you listened to our conversation before. Um, Ryan, like you do a really good job of finding like the balance cause you played and like you were good and you know, the balance of all the different things.

And you’re not like too far in one camp or the other, you’re just trying to mix it all together. Is that a, is that a fair assessment that you’ve tried to be pretty balanced?

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. I mean, I appreciate the kind of words. And, um, I think I come from a background where, uh, you know, and I think you guys as well, when you were planning your college fall, we didn’t have all this stuff.

I mean, like a J band, wasn’t a thing I remember seeing the first time they gave animals in spring training of 2011. I was like making fun of this kid named Boone one. And what are you doing? Like you go to the ball and throw it, you know, and like, I’m crazy. Does that sound now? So, um, I had a very, very old school head coach.

My first couple of years. I know when I stay at Jim brownie, you know, 75 years old now. And, um, she told you he was in world war one and world war two and Vietnam. And he was a, he was tough, really, really tough offense. It was about getting guys out. It was about competing. Um, it was about. Being an overall really good pitcher, you know, so I think that kind of morphed me into the picture.

I became the person I became eventually the coach, but, um, I kind of saw an opportunity. Um, it’s at the tail end of my pro career when I got to work with Brett Strom who, uh, is out part of the Astros. Um, and, uh, like he kind of opened up my eyes to a lot of the things that are going on now. And he was kind of on the forefront with that with Tom house and, um, very, very cool stuff.

So when I got released and this to go into coaching, I, that was something I wanted to get into. So, um, got into it, got into the cameras, the high speed cameras and, um, purchased my own Rapsodo back in 2016. And the funny story about that is I was on the phone, uh, recruiting Eric Jagers air Jagers the driveline guy and a really good pitch design.

And he was a, of course with the reds now. And so he’s deciding where to go to school. He was in a gap year. Um, so I gave him a call. He was really, really, really, really well he’s I’m interested. Um, he’s like, do you have wraps showdown? That was, I had no clue what he was talking to about. I was like, Oh no, but you know, we’re, we’re, we’re working on getting it, you know, it’s a little pricey, but like, you know, we’ll have about a time to get here.

Okay. Sounds great. So we hang up the phone, we get off. I get on do that. Like what wraps it up? Absolutely. I was like, Hey, you know what? Like he ended up going to Iowa. So like, we weren’t going to get him anyways, but like, If that was a kid that didn’t have that offer from a school like Iowa, like we lose out on that kid because of that.

And I was like, I need to learn about this. So yeah, I think with your players, it’s about blending them together, having a good balance and understanding that every single tool you have might not be for every pitcher in your program, every player in your program. And. Certainly we use some of those things more than others.

We’re certain guys. And, uh, I hate the sell sellout mentality, like mutually exclusive. Like you have to be a, data-driven throw hard tech guy and you can’t care about winning. Or, or you gotta be the old school screw this stuff. Like it doesn’t work. Um, I, I see, I see, uh, Bobby on there on Twitter, uh, with, with Jeff

Dan Blewett: I’m all over

Ryan Copeland: it.

I scroll past. I never, like, I never retweet. I never comment, but I see it. So

Bobby Stevens: yeah. Don’t don’t comment or, yeah, you don’t want to, you don’t want to turn your reputation by jumping on my Twitter.

Ryan Copeland: That’s that’s uh, that’s the scroll pass. That’s where you gotta have the field to scroll past. I think that’s what every college coach in America tries to do, but I think some can’t refrain either.

Bobby Stevens: It’s funny. Cause I do get a lot of messages on the side being like, I would love to say this and retweet this to like, but

Ryan Copeland: I can’t, I’ve said that to Dan, thanks to Dan. Like, Hey, I just want to know, I really agree with you. I’m not going to comment on it cause I just. It’s not worth it.

Bobby Stevens: No, you can’t. You can’t that’s you guys can’t in your position, you can’t take a hard line stance one way or the other.

You can’t really attack anybody. I can. That’s why I do it.

Ryan Copeland: Well, the benefit of that,

Dan Blewett: Bobby’s a paid gun for hire. So if you need to criticize someone on Twitter, Send $25 we event Steven. Yeah, I’ll do it for free.

Ryan Copeland: I’ll do it. I got to get this number. I just echo the message from the front from myself.

Bobby Stevens: You’re right.

Ryan Copeland: That’s fine.

Dan Blewett: So speaking of let’s start, we’re going to cover a couple of things. We’re we’re gonna talk about command a bit. We’re going to talk about the black lives matter movement a bit, which is, which hits home for you a little bit. And let’s also talk about, we’re going to chat about some technology.

So let’s start with cameras. Cause we were talking about this off camera. Um, so you guys, you said you just got a Sony RX 10, like the Mark four, which is the most recent version of that camera. And obviously the edge of Tronic is the one that gets so much press like it’s Ooh, like everyone, but you, you don’t feel like that’s the better camera, is that

Ryan Copeland: right?

Yeah. And I guess I should preface it by saying I’ve never used an editor Tronic solid. I can’t speak to that in, in fairness, but yeah. Just looking at the video quality, um, and the lack of color with the edge of Tronick. And, um, I just think that the Sony RX ten four is just night and day better, you know, in terms of pitch quality and all that.

So, uh, yeah, I mean, again, I can’t, I can’t speak to it cause I haven’t used it or Tronic, but we love the Sony. It’s unbelievable. And. Um, I would highly recommend anybody go get it if you’re in a pitch design and, uh, and Fitbit pitch overlay, but we use it for everything. We use it for, you know, mechanical analysis as well, not just with our pitchers, but with our, with our hitters as well.

Yeah.

Dan Blewett: So really for those of you out there, uh, I just grabbed it off the shelf. This is the Sony RX, 10 Mark four. And the, and the Mark for just like the fourth version of it. Like this is like a 10 year old camera. They update every four years. They don’t change the. The name of it, but it has a super long zoom.

I don’t have a battery in it right now, but it’s a, it’s an easily portable handheld. It’s like the size of a DSLR. Um, and it has a crazy zoom. So like I’ve gotten footage I’m actually going to screen share so people can see like what we’re talking about. I think that’s helpful. Um, but this is an Instagram video that I took on the Sony RX 10 from behind the plate from like 30 rows up at university of Maryland.

And this is I think 480 frames per second. And it’s pretty incredible because you see the pitch coming in. Like you can see the spin orientation really, really well. I mean, it slows down, it goes up to a thousand frames per second. That’s like I said, 480, but I mean, it’s pretty remarkable. And you could get this view like this close from over the center field wall.

So when you’re talking about. You know, tech that’s like accessible to college, like that’s an $1,800 camera I got mine used for, I think 1200, but I mean, what are some of the ways that you guys use it or how do you use it? The most.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah, I would say the, probably the most common and whether we use it as for, um, that the pitch analysis pitched design down in the bullpen, you know, so we’re out there in the bull pen.

We have our radar guns up. We have no pitching unit out and we have the, uh, the camera set up, you know, behind the pitcher’s throwing hand and we’ll zoom in on his hand. And, uh, we’ll, we’ll find the right, uh, the right angle we need to get to. And, you know, every picture is a little different, so you gotta get, you know, you’re pretty good with that.

And sometimes you gotta get creative because of. Yeah, the height of the pitcher or the different kinds of slot you gotta, and that’s, what’s cool. I think about using it as we kind of always experimenting with things and trying new things and, um, essentially, you know, we get in the bullpen and if we know we have a freshmen that comes in and, uh, it seems like so many guys come in here, young pitchers and slow loopy curve ball, low spin doesn’t have true depth to it.

Um, it’s not going to be a swing and miss pitch and I guess, kind of a slider program, um, like we kind of. Bang the curve balls, unless they’re really good when they come in and kind of go to something, show more short and tight, a little hybrid cutter slider thing. So we get in the bullpen. Yeah. We go through, get that testing data, see where they’re at initially.

And, um, right away, you’ll know, you know, the eyes tell you that too, but like, Hey, let’s take what we see with our eyes. Almost pair that up. And let’s kind of show proof. And with one of our pictures to show them that this isn’t going to work here, why. So let’s try to do this. And then it’d be kind of comes trial and error in the bullpen and you throw a pitch and you try a new grip, a different risk placement proceed on high speed camera at a thousand frames per second.

So when we finally find the one that looks really good, we have bad or feedback. We utilize that one. In a game. And of course we still have our wraps out there during an inner squad. We kind of identify, this is the one, these are the metrics, this spin, right. This vertical, horizontal break, uh, you know, this spin access.

And then from there, we try to repeat it as often as we can. Well, you can’t really do that objectively if you don’t have. High speed video. So, uh, you know, kind of pairing up with what we, what we feel with, uh, the, the objective video and the objective data with the camera on the wrap. So unit, and then from there, it terms, uh, you know, what would be your standard 10 to 15, 20 pitch bullpen.

Not miss, you know, to something really, really exciting for fun. It feels like you accomplish so much on certain days because of this technology. So that’s one way we use it. And then of course we use it for, uh, for mechanical analysis and it is so unbelievable how clear you can get that shot to be from, you know, in the stands from the side view.

Of course, in game, we can’t have anything in the dugout, but, um, We put a couple pictures on that. I’ll teach them how to use it in the fall so that when we get to the, get to the season, whether we’re home or away, and we’re getting high speed video of every single one of our pitchers. And, um, I’ll tell you this, uh, I think that the Scouts really appreciate it because they ask for, Hey coach, you got any video?

Yeah. And then you send them something like that. Like, Oh, Whoa, what kind of camera is that? Tell them, like, we don’t have that. Like. Now I got one of our former players is a player development with the Cubs. So he’s the one that kind of told me about the Sony RX ten three, and show me some clubs. I’m like, that’s unbelievable.

How much does it cost said, it’s only a couple of thousand. I’m like, okay. Like, you know, we can do that here. We can figure that out. So yeah, it’s been invaluable unless it’s a really, really, really good value for what you get with it. And. Um, it’s been, been a big part of our program in terms of, uh, you know, improving guys, you know, kind of repertoires and they’re in their, their arsenals on the mound.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. And it’s funny. I, when I was at, uh, when I was still back in Bloomington a year ago, I went to a Peoria chiefs game about like a month before I, before I left. And I was getting some footage from the side for YouTube videos, just like trying to get like little shots of things happening in games. Like if you catch a shortstop doing something.

In slow motion, you can like talk through it and teach about it. And there was a chief is either chief’s player or a visiting player was like four rows in front of me with the same camera, getting footage of all the pictures of the tripod. I was like, like, Hey, we should be friends. But like a lot of the teams have this technology too, because it’s so, like you said, it’s so easy.

It’s portable. Like you can teach anyone. It’s not like this big setup. And again, I don’t know about the inner workings of ed Tronick either, but. Those higher speed cameras are more complex and they require a little more knowhow and they’re expensive.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. I think the only, the only downside with the Sony is that, um, you can probably, if you’re in high speed mode, you can probably only get about every other pitch because accolade factor, which, which is fine.

I, I do believe I take the edger. Tronic is about every, every like 10 to 15 seconds, you can get a pitch. So about the time, you know, of a, of a guy in the mound, and I think there’s a, there’s a trigger button you can have, you know, from, you know, from a wireless perspective, but you can be in the dugout. You can have your camera set up, back there and click a button from the dugout.

If you’re in an inner squad. And nobody, I haven’t asked her to run the camera, which is pretty cool. So that’s probably one of the benefits of the after trial.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. One and, and to be fair. With a lot of this technology and you know, full well when stuff is such a long set up, like, for example, like you talked about your bullpens up, but you have to set up Rapsodo, you set up your camera.

When stuff gets too cumbersome, it just gets hard to do it. Like for me doing like YouTube videos, when I feel like set this up and that up in this up, and it’s just like, it just doesn’t get done. Right. And so when you have a camera, like the Sony is like pretty nimble. Cause it’s like a normal camera. You could just send someone into the end of the stands and they could hold it.

And like get the shot potentially when it’s just easy to use. It just makes everything a lot, a lot better. And sometimes like, even if they’re superior technology, but it’s way more complex and hard to use, it’s not better than just like the grab your cell phone camera and get something quick. You know, that’s, what’s still, I mean, cell phone technology is still pretty good, but it lacks the zoom.

That’s the big problem. Yeah.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. I think, uh, yeah, you can certainly use an iPhone, especially with the new cameras that have on those. The other also I have a work phone. I have a, I have like an iPhone for his mind. Is my iPhone.

Dan Blewett: Nice for that’s like Bobby, Bobby had a flip phone. That’s what they gave us.

Ryan Copeland: So I’m just fortunate to have a work phone. So, but I’ve seen people do crazy names with iPhone too. And like, you know, that’s, uh, yeah, you just do it the best you can. And obviously not everybody can afford a big, expensive camera like that, but you don’t need to. And that’s the great thing now. So,

Bobby Stevens: well, the rap soda is pretty

Dan Blewett: mobile too.

Isn’t it? It’s a, it’s a

Bobby Stevens: kind of like a box, almost

Ryan Copeland: ship triangle. And you can

Bobby Stevens: use that, uh, It’s not like the hit track. Terrific tracks is just a big bulky.

It’s

Dan Blewett: like you need a suitcase

Bobby Stevens: to

Ryan Copeland: drag it around. Yeah. The, uh, the wraps, both units, the hitting and the fishing. We have bowls, um, super portable. So like you can be in the bullpen, use it before a game.

If you want to get spin rate data and see what a guy has going on, you know, before and outing, I know that’s a. I think that’s something that some MLB teams have done. I think I’ve watched games where pregame bullpen, this guy’s a certain Fisher. They have the, that are out there. Just like go through the checklist, right?

Like, okay, this is good. Yeah. The breaking ball is where it needs to be the arm slot because it gives you a pitch affects data too. You know, it gives you the arm slots and release at point. So, um, so yeah, the old unit was on the tripod and that was a little bit of a pain, you know, you have to take a little tripod, put it up.

Yeah. It had to be six feet from the tip of it. Yeah. That’s, that’s pretty close to your catchers fee set up. And we had so many time for a ball, goes into the dirt. They go to block naturally and they kick the tripod out thing falls over. You’re praying you did this break your $4,000 raps. I went to the ground unit, which is awesome.

Awesome. Um, yeah, we had, yeah, we had a show it’s yesterday and Tuesday out here and we have the hitting unit face and the hitters and we have the pitch in the interface and pitchers and. Um, I think that’s a selling point for sure. And recruiting. Um, and if for nothing else, if you don’t believe in it don’t know anything about it, you don’t care about it.

It is cool. It’s pretty dang cool to get out there and see exactly how your ball is spinning and, uh, see what kind of a jump you have off the bat in terms of your legs to be low and all of that. So it’s good.

Dan Blewett: So let’s shift to cause you were, and I saw this graphic recently. I got, I think I was, I don’t know if I follow Illinois state baseball, but they tweeted.

A graphic of their all time leaders of walks per nine. And it was like Ryan Copeland, Ryan Copeland, Ryan Copeland Copeland, and talking about command with Liam Bowen as a head coach at my Alma mater university of Maryland, Baltimore County, and a really, really good talk about all that. Um, So you could always command the ball well, cause all of your, it said like all of your numbers, pretty much every year of your college career at the division one level, you were sub two walks per nine names, which is impeccable obviously.

And, uh, as far as talking about Rapsodo and technology and all this stuff that you can try to tinker and make things better, what is your opinion on command?

Ryan Copeland: Yeah, I think it’s the months. It is. Far more difficult to train command, and it’s a train velocity. I think you see that, right? And, and again, you get back into usual, exclusive exclusivity.

Like people think you can’t try to train both. And there’s this debate on social media all the time. You know, with guys about, if you can throw this fastball a better for me, why don’t you? But like, that’s assuming that you can improve it and like, You get into feel and I feel, you know, the feel for your hand to feel for you body and space, you know, the more technical term proprioception of course.

But like, I think that it came for me from. The countless hours and hours, hours as a eight year old, nine year old, 10 year old, 11, 12, uh, when you’re really in that moment, no motor learning phase of your life and development. As a, as a child playing catch with my dad and playing catch with my friends. And I grew up in the coldest sack.

We played tennis ball baseball every single day of the summer. And then you took a couple hours off and you played your, literally you game, your house league game, you know, at 6:00 PM. And like, it’s just all we did. That’s all we did. Um, so like, I think that helps a ton. I’ve always been able to throw anything exactly where I want.

And like, I can’t really explain it, but like, there are certain things I think some people can just do and feel what the baseball, the others can’t. And it’s like sometimes with our pitchers, like, are you guys, you probably could have feel like they’re throwing the ball with a midnight on their hand. And it’s like, they don’t feel their hand.

Whereas like one of my pitchers can teach me a grip or risk placement or what they do with a certain ball and like, We could get out of the wraps or I, but I could duplicate it like within five pitches, like almost the same exact metrics. And like, I honestly don’t know the answer. Um, we try, we try a lot of different things.

I think the most basic watered down answer is your catch play. But like we see a lot of people play good catch and they’re accurate. And then they get on the mound and like, they just. They can’t throw the ball where they want to. And then, then you get into the, yeah. The argument of control versus command control.

Being able to throw the ball where you want in the zone. And then within the zone is more command. Like I can throw the ball on this part of the plate, up, down and out and like that. How many guys, you know, you think of how many guys in the big leagues even have that? I mean, I think when Dallas  in 2015, I thought I read a stat that the average miss.

Of his location was around 10 inches and that’s a sign young winner with good stuff with, by all accounts, you know, really, really good command in the major leagues with far less velocity. And like he’s still misses his spot by 10 inches every time on average. Like, so I don’t really know the answer, but I think we’re trying to figure it out.

You know, we do stuff with command baseballs. Um, we try to do anything that we can get.

Dan Blewett: What is a command baseball?

Ryan Copeland: Um, so the, uh, so drive lion came out with baseballs and of course, part of their weight and baseball sets that are actually bigger and smaller. Um, so they actually have a little degree of, uh, you know, different weight to them in addition to different size, you know?

So it’s like you pick up a baseball and then you pick up a rock, you pick up a baseball, you pick up a, you know, all fall and you’re trying to throw the ball at the same exact spot every single time. Um, your body plays tricks on you. I think it’s the kind of the way to describe it. And it takes a ton of, you know, quote unquote field, you know, appropriate reception ability to be able to.

Oh, that ball where you want to. And, uh, we try things like that, um, deal with weighted balls as well. You know, getting in the bullpen and throw them, you know, at, uh, you know, 70, 80%, you know, so we’re making sure we’re staying safe, but throwing a six ounce ball and then a four and then a five and a seven, then a six, and trying to throw the same pitch where you want to go with different ways, you know?

So like there’s things that we try. Um, but I don’t know that. I know the answer. I don’t know that anybody does, because why wouldn’t we have figured that out yet, walk rates at an all time high. Clearly there’s a correlation between that and the increase in pitch and velocity, you know, is the pitching better now than in the, in the seventies and eighties?

I think. Absolutely. But those guys don’t tell you that they think it’s worse. So like, I don’t know.

Dan Blewett: So I heard that it’s, it’s now five walks per nine. Is the division one average, at least. I mean, is that con, is that the same in India?

Ryan Copeland: Yeah, like I know like in like, we’re usually in the middle of the pack with that, like, you know, and that’s weird for me because like, that’s not who I was as an, as a pitcher.

And I think, um, The best advice. Some of the best advice I got from a former, a former coach of mine was that, you know, never assume that things are going to be as easy for other people as they were for you and vice versa. There’s going to be guys, you coach that can do things you couldn’t do. So the worst thing you can do is go recruit a bunch of players that you think are going to be like you.

Because when I go recruit, I would love to have a left handed pitcher coming there as a freshman. That’s five 11 that’s, 85, 88. You know, that can absolutely pound the zone and they can throw the both sides of the play at three, four pitch mix control the running game, their athletics. That guy doesn’t really exist though.

I know that. And if he does, he he’s going to a power five, right? Like, because they can, they can see that. And I know there’s going to be a little below job. Um, it’s easier to take the six, two, six, three guy that has a 90 mile, an hour arm and a little lack of command and just hope over the course of his time in college, that he’s going to find his own enough.

That stuff is going to overtake. He’s going to walk some guys. Um, but you know, he’s going to have swing and miss stuff. The ball’s not going to be put in play a whole lot. His opponent batting average is going to be down. So it turned, his whip is about where it needs to be with the walks, even being high.

And, uh, I think that guy’s a lot easier to recruit a lot easier to find. And like we have guys like, yeah, for a guy that, you know, winning the entire season. I like, I walked nine guys and the 20, 2008 season around a hundred. Yeah. Um, like that’s very frustrating for me sometimes, but. I remind myself, it’s a different time.

And

Dan Blewett: then it’s

Ryan Copeland: not as easy as throwing a throw strikes. Like, Hey, they’re trying to throw strikes. There’s there’s something going on in the body and the mind and the hand. That’s not allowing them to do that. So,

Dan Blewett: yeah. Yeah. One thing that I found Bobby, go ahead. I

Bobby Stevens: was going to say, throw a strike. So when you hear the

Ryan Copeland: parents yelling from the stands,

Bobby Stevens: but it’s part of it too.

We talked about this with Liam. Like I had mentioned, I think part of it is attitude. It’s like stop trying to nibble off

Dan Blewett: the plate.

Bobby Stevens: And so I’m trying to throw your two seam on the corner. Like throw it in the middle, let it run, let it run to a spot. Don’t try and be perfect with it. And it ends up being a ball.

And it’s not necessarily that it wasn’t a good pitch. It was at the hitter just. Like, he doesn’t want to swing at an inside fastball and then it runs off a plate. Now it’s a ball. Whereas if you throw it down the middle, like yeah, his eyes are going to light up and he’s going to jam himself. Like it’s more of an eye.

I feel like a lot of it is attitude with young, especially with the, I work a lot with a younger guys. Like I’m not in, I don’t do as much with college level athletes. I definitely don’t do it a lot with pitchers, but if I ever am coaching a game and I have to go to the mound or talk, it’s like, Hey. Let’s let’s focus on, you know, what’s powering the strike zone and let them make some mistakes.

Like you’re making all the mistakes for them. Let them make a few mistakes and get a little bit of confidence. Like I try and preach confidence, but it’s more of an attitude. I think then people realize when you want to pound the strike zone, throw strikes, because guys are taught to hit the corners,

Ryan Copeland: stay low in the zone,

Bobby Stevens: and then you try and be so fine with it.

You end up one Oh two Oh three out a pitcher or to two good hitters. And then. Those were the best

Dan Blewett: council hit hidden, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And we didn’t end up covering that in our talk with, with him, but I mean, you’re right. And, and I think the weird thing with youth players is they don’t learn from almost anybody that there’s more to the plate than just the middle and the corners.

And they don’t realize as much. And I explain this to all of them that there’s middle halves, thirds, and corners, and really like the halves. You watch big leaguers there’s catcher setting up to the half way more than you realize, like outer half first pitch, inner half. Cause they know there’s going to be some leeway and outer half becomes outer third when you miss that way, right?

Like Dallas cuckold knows he’s going to miss off the plate. So if he catchers outer half first pitch. Yeah. It gives them plenty of room. So just all right. Boom. I hit the corner. If I missed it, it’s outer half first, first pitch, big deal. He crowns out anyway and kids don’t realize that they get one strike and now they’re on the black.

And then, you know, by just like the law of averages, if you had, if you threw a thousand pitches, you’re going to have a, a spread. Right. Uh, what do they call that? I know I’m blanking at the moment.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah,

Dan Blewett: yeah, yeah. And so if you’re on the split and you’re splitting the black half of those are going to be balls, half of them are going to be strikes just from random chance.

Assuming all of your misses are relatively. Constant will probably be more like an egg shape, but you know, and so then if you’re like, okay, let’s take that grouping. That’s the word I was looking for it. You take that, grouping your heat map and move it to the centered over the half. Now you throw 67% strikes.

Cause less of that grouping is off the plate. So Bobby you’re a hundred percent correct. That there’s a strategy part to it. Like so many kids are boom, strike one on the black boom ball one. Now they just come back over the middle, the plates like you should’ve just gone middle then the outer half now you’re Oh two.

Then you can screw around and like. And you’re good. So, I mean, do you see a lot of that, Ryan, like guys come in with like a lack of strikes on awareness? Yeah. No,

Ryan Copeland: that’s Bob, that’s a great point. Um, you know, that’s a philosophical thing and that’s what we do here. I, you know, I’m glad you brought that up. I might’ve let that slip past me.

Um, we teach our pitchers to throw the ball down the middle of the plate. Ali. I am not, I’m not lying to you if it’s Oh, Oh. Or even, Oh, one, one, one, our catcher does not move. We give ourselves we’ll call margin for error. You’re not good enough. No one in the big leagues is good enough to actually physically throw the ball exactly where they want it.

Every single time, they actually probably really happens, you know? I’ll watch games tonight and I’ll keep track, but like the catcher sets up right off the outside corner. Like how many times is the pitcher actually throw the ball? And there’s very minimal government. I mean, almost never. And those are the best throwers in the world and the most accurate throwers in the world.

And they still struggle with that. So, We have our catcher set up right down the middle of the plate. And we have like our pitch calling zones and one, two, three, four, five, six, zero. Um, but like, yeah, we want to give ourselves margin for error so you can throw your 91 mile an hour. Two-seam right down the middle in.

And you just let that thing play to the, to the arm side and yeah, you give yourself room to miss and all of a sudden. Sometimes the balls on the black anyways, you know, but if you’re trying to be on the corners all the time, uh, with the amount of games you get at this level, the amount of times that people fly open, they lose themselves on the front side.

Um, yeah, a pitch group and it’s going to be all over the place. And, um, like with our breaking balls, we have two zones throw your breaking ball as hard and as late and sharp as you possibly can, with the most spin right down the middle. And then do the same exact thing and throw it on top of the plate.

That’s

Dan Blewett: it? Yeah.

Ryan Copeland: Try to locate. We will try to locate fastball. You know, you got to pitch inside and you got to miss intentionally in sometimes. But, um, when we try to throw our changeups and our breaking balls, we focus on the pitch quality, right? Like the DNA of the pitch is something that we talk about.

And like, we all have DNA, you know, Dan, Bob, you guys look the way you do because of your DNA. And same for me. Pitches have DNA, that pitch characteristics, the kind of cool thing about pitching is you can change them a little bit. You can alter your DNA with your pitches. So like let’s find out what the DNA of your pitches are.

Let’s understand how they break, how they move when they’re there, their best, throw them right down there, the middle of the plate. So we just train the stuff and then we rely on the movement of the pitch and the pitch profile to get the hitter out. And, uh, I think the best example to, to show pictures for the young pitchers is that.

Watch a college VP. Like we won’t talk about the Baileys. Those guys are so special, but watch a good college program. Take batting practice. Every fastball is 56 miles an hour, right down the middle of the plate. And how many misses you still see? I mean, it’s unbelievable. We really swing it here and we get frustrated with our guys sometimes like, Hey, man, like, what are you doing?

Why are you popping the ball up into the top of the cage? It is hard. It’s really, really hard. I think if you take that philosophy, pitchers, understand that you can really, really help yourself cut down your walks, increase, you know, your week contact, um, have a little more presence about you. So yeah, I completely agree with that.

Some of it isn’t about proprioception and command training. It’s about philosophy. And I think sometimes the disconnect I believe is. We have pictures with better stuff than ever. I don’t think that’s debatable. We have pitchers that throw harder than ever. That’s not debatable, but we also have the old school mindset of throw down in the zone.

You gotta be on the black. He can’t be in the middle of the plate coming up as a youth. So like you’re pairing a. Philosophy of, in terms of how you attack the zone with a completely different

Dan Blewett: philosophy that is

Ryan Copeland: we’re trying to do now. And they clash as opposed to throwing everything out in the middle of the plate.

And if you throw a 97, I’ll take my chances that it’s going to be hard, hard to square up for any hitter, you know?

Dan Blewett: Yeah. That’s a good point.

Bobby Stevens: I want to ask you guys both, cause I’m not a pitcher. Um, so if I talk pitching to anybody, it’s more like how to attack a hitter. Like what I would do if I were. Like what I would expect as a hitter and then, you know, do the opposite.

But, so we’ve got a lot of guys, like they’ll throw first pitch and the guy will yank one, three 50 poolside file, and then I’ll ask the guy, okay, what, what should you throw here again? And I always get the answer. It’s always, why should I, I’m going to go solve something soft away. And my answer is always well, he just showed you what he’s going to do with that, that pitch.

Throw it in again, I’m like, let them give you another Stripe. Give you strike two. I’m like keep going in there until he proves he can make an adjustment. Is that, am I wrong there? I’m moving for more validation. Like whether or not I’m telling kids the right thing or not.

Dan Blewett: Well, I’ll, I’ll start. Cause it’s funny.

You started, you mentioned pitching inside because that’s a really another good piece to your previous question, which is knowing like strategy stuff, because. When I would do simulated games with kids as we’re getting close to high school season and we have fake batters, I’m like, all right, this, guy’s got a really fast bat, really likes to ambush and really likes to pull the ball.

Like how, you know, how do you want to pitch him? What do you wanna start them off with? And a lot of times kids in that situation, you know, or say that the kids got us guys got a slow bat and likes to go opposite field. Like, Oh, I’ll go, I’ll go fastball inside first pitch. Cause I know he’s trying to hit the ball the other way.

That seems to make sense in theory, but Ryan you’d probably agree. Do hitters swing at pitches on the inner third. Inside on the first pitch, they take that stuff. At least in my experience, they don’t like to swing in like NN on when they don’t have to like, Oh, Oh one, Oh, you throw it in. Either taking it unless they’re like ready to ambush something, but you take most, most hitters in my experience inside first pitch is really hard to get a swing and umpires.

Don’t like to call it. So if you go inside third or farther in first pitch, you’re pretty much setting yourself up to be ball one. Whereas if you get a strike under your belt and now you go inside, Oh, one that hitters, like, I probably need a swing at that. That seems close out of his hand, then they’re more inclined to help you.

Like, that’s just like a basic strategy thing that I figured out. Cause I pushed inside a lot. I had to just be successful and I knew I’m not going in early. I’ve got to get ahead. Then if I go in later, This guy is going to help me by swinging at that pitch that maybe is a borderline ball and that maybe the empire doesn’t want to call anyway.

And now I get it. I get a strike because he’s helping me by swinging. How do you feel about early inside, inside pitches, right?

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. Uh, well, you know, you talk to you talk to your hitters and you talked to your pitchers and, um, you have those conversations with them. And like the one thing you find, no matter who’s hitting, no matter how talented they are, Is in any count.

They hate the ball inside if it’s firm and it’s in, whether it’s for a strike, you know, right on the inner half or it’s, you know, in, off their hands, they hate it. They cannot stand it. They don’t want to hit that. Now, of course, there’s the, there’s the times where hitters will ambush and they’ll cheat and they’ll try to step off.

Then they still gotta be pretty dang good to be able to keep that ball fair and get on the barrel again, if there’s assuming there’s a base of velocity. So yeah. Um, that’s a common tape and I think then there’s the middle ground, you know, the, the one strike pitch where like, they feel like they’re kind of in swing mode now a little bit, especially if they’re behind that account.

And then I think it reverts back to a no strike count with two strikes. As in you get a lot of takes with two strikes and you throw a fastball in, it is just. Out of the hand, it just doesn’t look right. It doesn’t look good. Um, some of the best pictures we’ve had, um, have been able to do that really, really well.

And, uh, we had Andrew Davis drafted out of here two years ago to the Padres and, um, that’s all we did together. Like when in doubt we just have a fast fall in it, you know, at 90 91. And, uh, I would have loved to see his opponent batting average on that pitch. And, um, it’s just almost an unhittable pitch that no hitter, I just want to swing at that.

So yeah, that’s, uh, I think that’s the, that’s where you get until the advance, you know, the ability to pitch is like, We see so many fastballs away and fastballs away. And like I had a picture to a right hand in the dirt. You have to learn how to, so extension side and be able to, to be able to throw a strike on the outer half.

It’s a, I would say it’s one of the tougher pitches to drive if it’s in the right location, but. Um, if you’re out there all single day, um, you know, hitters start to pick up on that scatter reports get out. So, um, yeah, pitching inside was huge for me. It’s a big part of our staff and our culture and our, what we try to accomplish.

And, um, that’s not easy though. A lot of guys really, really struggle with it. And there’s a fine line between trying to throw in and for strives, trying to throw in for a fact. A lot of times guys, they just yank the ball and it can’t get in there as a righty, as a lefty, they pull off and it ends up being middle way.

So, yeah. Uh, pitching aside is probably one of the hardest things to teach, but I think it is a mindset kind of like Bobby mentioned about the strikes on the edge. I think it is a little philosophical as well.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. And to your point more specifically, One of my like biggest, and this is still like a really vivid memory for me.

Cause it was when I was really starting to learn to pitch in summer ball. Cause we had old like salty, lefthanded, um, like minor league and any ball veteran as, as my, uh, on my manager. And one of the best hitters in the league was the guy who was coming from Louisville. I don’t, I think he went to Northwest Shoals after that.

Like he was like a Louisville first year, then like bounced out, but super fast hands and he was crowding the plate. And this was a guy that would just like would hurt you. I mean, he was just lightning fast bat. And so he wanted to pull everything. He would not hit a ball to the opposite field the entire season, but he was hitting like three 60 against everyone else and hitting like two 20 against our team because our coach is like, look, I know it seems like because he wants to pull the ball down the line.

You want to stay away from him? He’s like, that’s wrong. He’s like, he’s trying to pull out or half pitches. That’s why he crowds the play a little bit. That’s what he’s looking to do. We’re feeding him nothing but inside fastballs. And we’re all like, okay, so the staff bought in and everyone’s just pounding.

The student were hitting him, like not trying to hit them, but just like, you’re going to hit them when you throw them all in. And he’s just roping balls, foul. And it did, it took some conviction because I was like, ah, and he hits a missile foul and you’re like, I kind of want to go wait, Nope, go back in and pulls another missile foul.

And he’s like getting frustrated. Cause he knows he can’t keep it fair and you just keep it in there and it’s like, he can’t get you. It’s like having like a, you know, like in a fight where like the bully like holds you and you like can’t reach the bully, you know, that kind of thing. It’s like, he literally can’t keep that pitch fair.

Cause he’s not going to change the swing in the inside out it, or like get it to the big part of the ballpark. And we literally just own this kid all summer. By pitching, which is that way inside, which it definitely seems counterintuitive to everybody else. And then once in a while, once we he’s like really on the ropes, freeze them low and away, and he just shakes his head and just walks back.

But I learned a lot from that because it’s, it was counterintuitive and you kind of needed somebody to say, Hey, this is, this is, it seems like the wrong thing to do, but it’s. It’s the way we’re going to go and you’ll see how it works. And it really is fascinating just that like back and forth with hitters and, and some of the, like I said, counterintuitive approaches that pitchers take.

So it’s hard.

Bobby Stevens: I feel like it’s hard. It’s hard as a, just a player general to watch somebody have some success with success. I would consider as like barreling a ball off of you, but it’s fall. And then the think that that’s not the correct. That is the correct thing to do. Like if you

Ryan Copeland: hit it foul, it’s so hard to adjust.

Bobby Stevens: Like especially reverse it. If you’re throwing fastballs away and he’s just pepper in the opposite field dugout stick with that pitch until he shows you, he can at least speed up the bat enough to keep it between the lines. If he can’t do it, there’s no reason to speed it up for them. So I try and tell the guys like, Hey, they’re giving you tons of information, whether it’s take a pitch or how they swing at a pitch or where the ball goes when they follow it off.

Take that info and use it like don’t make don’t overcomplicate it. Like the pitch, you just crew is also a good pitch. The next pitch, like you can double up,

Dan Blewett: you can triple up

Ryan Copeland: just because you

Bobby Stevens: have three pitches doesn’t mean you need to mix and match, which every pitch like it’s okay to pitch with just your fastball until someone proves they can hit your

Dan Blewett: face.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah.

Bobby Stevens: And I don’t, and this is coming from another pitching guy by any stretch. I’m just. In my, my, I played shortstop

Dan Blewett: go, you have to do it all. You have to be

Bobby Stevens: mean, you gotta, you know, you gotta gotta juggle out of different buckets here, but where’s the shortstop. I’ve watched the pitch calling, you know, the whole game, every, every game I ever played.

And, and, um, I remember thinking like, this is not the right pitch, you know, why are we calling this pitch? Like, what’s the, and sometimes it’d be right. Sometimes it’d be wrong, but like I’m learning. Cause I’m basically in it with the pitcher and the catcher. As a shortstop, like if you’re a middle guy, you’re basically in that pitch calling sequence the whole game.

So you learn a lot by watching guys that were good calling games, got what you guys that were terrible calling games. Like it’s, it’s helpful to know the pitches and kind of like see the results.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. Ryan, what’s, what’s your guys’ stance on, on calling games? Like how does it work at your

Ryan Copeland: program? Yeah. So I I’ve called pitches most of the time here, I’m going back to 2016 and that’s something I always, I always fight that I always fight.

Like I know the arguments for, I know the arguments again. I know you’re a big proponent for not calling pitches and, um, yeah. And like, I, I absolutely see both sides. Um, I would say our catchers have the ability to, um, Call pitches at certain times. Um, and what we, we try to do is if, even if I’m calling pitches in a game, um, like there is still is coaching going on.

Cause I think the biggest argument is like, let them learn, let them develop. And like, what if they have a chance to go play pro ball and like, well, like I think that’s an outdated argument because like, Pro catchers are essentially calling pitches based off of like data. Now, like if it gets to this point, this is what we do.

And I, Bobby touched on it and I, I agree with Bobby, I think a lost art and we talked about data collection. What about the data that a hitter gives you from their swings and their tastes and the way that they hit the ball and what they’re trying to accomplish. And like, that’s a big part of pitch calling as well.

Um, I guess the argument I would make is like, I don’t, I don’t necessarily know what my strengths or weaknesses are. Coach province talks other people. Um, I think my biggest strength is taking what I did as a pitcher with, for most of my career under whelming velocity, but being well, the pitch at a high level and have been a really good baseball conference, um, and in getting really good hitters out and taking that knowledge and, and helping our guys get hitters out.

In game by controlling that stuff, but also still trying to coach them up as well. Um, and I guess the, uh, you know, the, the one argument again is as well, they’re not necessarily getting to do it themselves, right. They’re not getting to fail themselves. Um, and I think, and I, and again, I get the argument of like that this is what you should want for your pictures, but like, I think it’s a lot easier said when you’re not a couch it’s being paid to win games.

I think that. If someone like me is able to see your side and understand it and appreciate it and respect it and like kind of agree. In some ways it feels like the other side. Isn’t that way. Like, no, you should never let them do that. And I guess the argument is okay if I have two catchers, neither of them are going to be pros, which actually is not the case on a roster.

I know we have two pretty good ones. I’m Melissa say we have two guys that are really good catchers. Not going to be prosed. I guess the argument is like, well then what if they call their own pitches? And whether they’re good or bad, what do we do, letting them develop for they’re going to go get their MBA and go work in accounting.

I mean, like that’s the argument, I guess I would make like, they’re here for four years. Are we supposed to let them be very average in. Alternate pitch calls for no rhyme or reason, not double up, not triple up, not have the wherewithal to understand the scattering report while everything else is going on for a couple of years.

And we lose some games and turn not that coaches don’t lose games that happens. I am sure. I know I have. I’ve called the wrong pitch and the wrong time. Absolutely. And, uh, I think, uh, the communication aspect starts with your relationships with your players. I mean, I can think of specific times where. I called a fastball in and I guess, wrong, the guy was all over it.

I thought we could beat him. You talked to your catcher and Hey, you know, was that where it needed to be? Yeah. Yeah. It was. You walk over to your pitcher and that’s my fault. That’s my fault. That’s on me. Keep going. Like they, man. We’re good. Um, and I think like, again, this is, seems like it’d be like that the running theme mutual exclusiveness, like.

I don’t think it has to be one way or the other. Um, because I do see both sides. So we’ve called pitches here for the most part. I’ve done it. I think, um, it’s a strength of mine as a pitching coach. I’m also very, very aware that like a lot of people don’t believe in it and they have really good reasons as well.

I guess that’s the best way I can describe it.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. Well, and, and you and I have both played and Bobby as well have played with pitchers who don’t call their own game very well in pro ball. Right. It’s like, how are you? How have you been around for five years? And you still. Throw that on that count to that guy.

You’re like what? What’s wrong with you? And it’s like, they don’t ever really learn. And those guys become college coaches, and then they’re calling on the kids’ games and you wonder, okay. And that’s part of my point is like there’s no certification test. There’s no checks and balances like half the programs in the country lose

Ryan Copeland: that’s

Dan Blewett: right.

I’ll certify

Ryan Copeland: Bobby. Bobby is, Bobby is going to sound certified. I’m just calling to verify pitch color on your Twitter bio.

Dan Blewett: Exactly. But, uh, but yeah, no, and I get that. So it’s, it’s, uh, it is, there’s definitely a lot on both sides. Um, and you know, what’s really interesting jumping back to command and you through from a lower arm slot, right?

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. Like pretty low three quarter. Yeah.

Dan Blewett: Isn’t it bizarre though? And I had this thought this past summer, I was, I was throwing BP to my guys. Isn’t it weird. And this, I think this comes back to what you said about some of the playground stuff is that you can be on the mound and. I’m just like, I’m going to mix in a sidebar, like a submarine pitch.

And as you’re about to do that, you like get this feeling in your body. That even though, like, I specifically remember this moment from last summer where I was about to do this, and I’m like, I know how to do this, and I know how to throw this for a strike. And I feel like that’s, it’s truly bizarre to think.

I haven’t thrown a ball side arm from a pitching mound. And I don’t know how long, right. I literally never do that. And it’s yet I am going to throw this ball for a strike and then as I throw it, it’s close and then I throw another one and I make an adjustment. And it’s a strike. Like that ability is, is baffling.

When you really think about it, that a human can just be like, eh, I’m just gonna do this. And I’m going to know, still know where it goes. Do you feel like young players lack that? Do you feel like infielders, like kids who are more well rounded maybe as youngsters. Develop that like the fact that you’re playing shortstop and your pitcher gives you more of that proprioception and the ability to make adjustments.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah, I think so. And, uh, While I think the play as many sports thing is a, is good, but overplayed. I think something doesn’t make sense for people. We we’ve we’ve had this conversation, like it doesn’t, you know, play four sports and be bad at all of them. Like you can just play baseball and be average, like just play baseball and be average.

And you can play pickup basketball on your own football and all that. But, um, yeah, it it’s, it’s fascinating because like you, somebody with a lot of feel that those a ton of strikes. You can take an entire pitching staff and let’s say, you’re their coach. Right. And you’re like, okay, I’m going to, I’m going to emulate your mechanics, your mechanics or mechanics.

I’ll throw here, here, here, here. I’ll close my eyes and open up. I’ll do a little shimmy like Marcus Stroman. And I will still throw more strikes than you. And it’s like, that’s what we got. Yeah. We just talked about like, how can somebody explain that? And like, I don’t know. Yeah. Like that’s the thing, like Marcus Stroman do that and like, You have some pictures that just can’t even throw the same pitch twice in a row in the same spot.

And like, I think, I think being a young kid that like, I don’t know. I think we’re all pretty similar in age. Like I just know the way that I know we grew up and like, this is old man on the porch kind of thing, I guess. But like we’re outside all the time, all the time and it’s not just like video games, but that’s not the only culprit.

It’s a different world. Like it’s less safe now. It is like, um, but like we were outside all the time, running around playing ghost in the graveyard. Excuse me. Right? Like playing pickup baseball, and then playing tackle football. And you got to play quarterback. Yeah. I think like if you’re using, you have some, some level of athleticism as it is as a kid, and then you just develop further, develop it by doing all those different things and constantly being outside.

It’s like one thing that I I’ve talked about with a close friend of mine, have you ever noticed that. Like we talked about injury prone athletes, especially like in falling sports. Certain people know how to fall better than others. Like there are places somebody would pick up basketball. Like they, they always roll their ankle.

They always fall when they try to get a rebound and the other guy doesn’t, or he’s falls, but he knows how to land. Right? Like that’s something nobody talks about, but like, I see it on a, we play pickup basketball, his coaching staff and the off season, like, and I think that’s, that’s a whole nother level of proprioception.

Like. In injury prone athletes. Like they just, they don’t have a feel for their body and space like the other guy does. And that of course ties right into, you know, being able to throw something exactly where you want. And like whoever comes up with the answer to that, like

Dan Blewett: would be, well, I remember, I remember this moment.

I think it was two summers ago. We were playing a S a small school from Illinois, like a team that my team should have like, destroyed. Right. And I’m watching my pitcher, he went like two winnings walked five or six. I had to pull him and I’m watching him throw hard with like good standard, like clean, nice mechanics.

This is, I mean, it was a good pitcher who will play in college. He’s got a really good arm. Um, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let you know his name after the, after the show. Yeah. Um, and I just watch him. And I’m I’m, I’m watching him walk people. We had a couple mal visits and I’m like, what? I’ve done anything different with him?

All winter? No. Does he look good? Yes. Does he have the mechanics he needs to throw strikes? Absolutely. He looks every bit the part. And then on the other side, we played this team from a small town that had like 10 kids. The kid has terrible mechanics throwing slow hounds, the strike zone and hounds the strike zone vividly.

Remember this? Yeah. And I’m like, It just isn’t mechanics. It just isn’t. If it was, it wouldn’t be like this, you know? And it’s just a it’s like you said, it feels like a cop out. It feels was like, you wish you had an answer, but when you have enough moments of those watching kids, and like you said, it’s just.

What is it? It’s, it’s something, isn’t it?

Bobby Stevens: Hours that you spend? Like, I feel like kids today, it’s not just video games, but the amount that they use their mind and how little they might use their body, like I’ve got kids that come to practice and that’s probably their only active activity, like physical activity all week.

And it’s where like, Like Ryan said, like he’s out playing tackle football, and then they’re playing lob, you know, tennis ball, baseball in the culdesac. I, I remember being outside every single day, throwing a rubber ball against my stairs and whether or not, I mean, that’s, I’m logging hours outside, but, um, I mean the amount of my arms got, I would say 10 times the amount of throws at 14 years old than my current

Dan Blewett: 14, you players had.

Yeah, that’s probably, that’s not.

Bobby Stevens: And it’s just, I mean, it’s not to say that a lot of them aren’t talented or as athletic or more athletic than I was, but the amount of hours I’ve logged and I’ve heard people say this about kids from Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico that like their physical maturity and the amount of ground balls that they’ve taken.

Dan you’ve talked about this, like the amount of ground balls a 12 year old Dominican player has taken is gotta be infinitely more than a 12 year old American kid. And it’s just, and that’s not a tried and true, like a hundred percent, but 99% of those kids down there, that’s

Dan Blewett: all they’re doing is

Bobby Stevens: taking ground ball

Dan Blewett: after ground ball.

So they’re a hundred percent actions. Just different. Yeah, for sure. Well, Ryan, I want to, I want to switch gears. Um, cause we want to talk about before we wrap up here, the, uh, the black lives matter movement and uh, so like what have you guys done as a team to talk about that? Um, how has it affected you personally?

Like we both, all three of us have been through pro ball and seen that. There’s definitely some of that going on. Like there is still racism in the clubhouse and teams and I shared my perspective, but what’s, uh, what’s been your take and what have you guys done as far as

Ryan Copeland: all that? Yeah. When, uh, when we were at the height of that with the protesting and then turns into riots there, back in, uh, may, may and June.

Um, I actually had a few players reach out to me individually, you know, like coach you’ve seen what’s going on. Um, you know, what are your thoughts on it? Uh, we’ll pick up the phone. Like you just have a conversation, you know, and I think that’s where it all starts. Like there they were. Very few people in this country that can just have a conversation.

Um, and it’s like, you know, you have to be able to have a conversation, um, communicate your points, understand that maybe the person you’re talking to might disagree with you and like, that’s okay. Like we can still all be okay. We can still respect each other and just try to gain a different, um, a different perspective.

So, um, we have a black player. Um, we have an African American player and, uh, So when that was all going on, he’s a Chicago kid. I reached out to him. Um, I just, you know, and like I kinda went back and forth to be honest. Now it looks like, of course you gotta reach out to him. Right. But like, at that time I was just like, is he going to take that differently than I want him to take it?

Like, I want him to know, I care about him. I want him to know that like, I’m here for him. So I called him and, uh, Yo, Hey, you know, I, I just wanna, I wanna check in with you and see how you’re doing and, um, right away you could tell how much it meant to him. Um, not that I can ever understand what he was going through.

Um, and not that I ever will. Uh, and certainly I haven’t lived a day in his shoes and, um, the things that he’s probably been through as a, as a black man and. In the United States? Um, I can’t, yeah, I relate to it, but I can try to understand it. And, uh, it was really, really important for me to know that, um, I was there for him and, uh, if he needed to talk to somebody about anything regarding, you know, the stuff going on, um, I was here for him.

And so then I made the decision. I talked to him, some people, um, I talked to my former boss, but was out Lenore Ryan and. Um, he was like, yeah, you know, we’re gonna meet as a, as a, as a team on zoom and we’re going to talk about what’s going on in our country. And I was like, Okay like that, that’s, that’s a, that’s a tough thing to do because like, it’s not fun to talk about, but like, I think it’s our duty to talk about that stuff.

Like if you ignore it and you just pretend it doesn’t exist and you pretend that systemic racism, isn’t a thing in this country, like you are just as guilty as everyone else. Um, and that’s, that’s my opinion. I’m very strong on that. So, uh, we got together, we had a, about an hour zoom meeting. We brought in somebody from our campus that works in the diversity center.

Um, I wanted to have our players here from a voice of somebody who probably has a little more, a little more experience with everything that was going on. And it was, uh, it was fantastic. And, uh, I had my talking points and, um, I wanted to be clear that this is not about sides. This is not about. Left right.

Conservative liberal. It’s not it’s about human beings being treated the way that they deserve to be treated, um, and acknowledging the history of our country and the racist history of our country that you cannot deny. And clearly things have gotten much better when you look back two, three, 400 years, but have they gotten to where they need to be not even close.

And, uh, um, it really hit home with me and my girlfriend. It is black and she. Um, she’d had some really, really tough days and really tough nights, um, that really, really hard on her. And I think, um, I got to see how people were reaching out to her, but really didn’t know what to say, how to say it. And, uh, people were leaning on her to give them like advice on how they should act.

And I know that she thought that was really unfair because like, I think if you’re, you’re a black person in this country, like. You just, you just want to be treated right. That people have in this country forever. So, um, yeah, it was really, really close to me. It still is. I think, uh, we need to keep speaking up about it.

Yeah. Can’t let this go away until today. Things get better and, um, and understand that, you know, there is things that we can do. And one of the most powerful things that I did with my girlfriend, we went to a protest here in downtown Springfield. I. If you would have said to me five years ago, like, Hey, you’re going to go to a black lives matter protest in support of, you know, these black men, that black women that have been killed by the police.

Um, in recent times, um, I thought you were crazy. And, uh, I think that one of the things that I’ve stepped back I can gain perspective on is like I’ve changed. And I think for the better, I remember five, six. 10 years ago, not caring about any of this stuff. It didn’t matter to me. Um, and then like, well, it got flipped and I don’t know what it was.

It, it wasn’t necessarily dating my girlfriend. I think it happened a little bit before that where like I changed my perspective, changed all that stuff. And I remember the Ferguson riots and, and the, uh, the Baltimore riots and the protests and like kind of shutting them, like, what are they doing? Like, I admit to that.

And then like, here we are in five, six, seven years later. And like, I can’t believe I thought like that, but I think that’s a good thing is I think it shows you that you can change. Like you don’t have to be set in your ways. You can try to gain a different perspective. So yeah, it’s really, really important to me.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s and you obviously read my letter that I put out. That was sort of like, I, like you said, I think a lot of us didn’t know what to do. And for me, I’m not like a very raw person. Like I went to a protest in DC one day.

Um, but I felt like I could write. And that was sort of like my best way to reach other people and young people that I’d worked with. And for people that don’t know, like you’re in central Illinois, that’s where I lived the last nine years where we met and it’s predominantly white. And for most people like they just, they don’t have.

A horse in the race, essentially, they just like, don’t know what’s going on and it’s not like really in their backyard or their problem. Like if you’re in central Illinois, there’s a lot of great people there, but they don’t really have any connection to Ferguson, Missouri. Like they’ve never lived in a city where they see the diversity.

Like I appreciate here where I live in D C see, like, I see all types of people, every block that I walk, like, like all, all types of people. And, um, and like you said, we’ve all experienced this in our clubhouses. There’s only, you only have a handful of black teammates every year. And it’s typically like almost if I looked back at my own career, it’s probably two guys every season and that was it.

And that I think that a bout represents the 8% that is in baseball now, but, and those numbers are still dwindling, but yeah, I think it’s hard for a lot of kids, especially like in your neck of the woods, just to really understand. Cause they just like live their life. You know, they, they don’t know as many black people in central Illinois and they don’t know.

Anyone who’s really suffering probably

Ryan Copeland: from it when they never asked

Dan Blewett: or asked. Yeah. Well,

Bobby Stevens: Springfield’s kind of, I’ve been to Springfield probably a half dozen times. Springfield’s kind of diverse,

Dan Blewett: more diverse diversity. It’s

Ryan Copeland: more diverse, but it’s also very segregated. Like there’s. Just like a big city, like Chicago.

I mean, there’s your, there’s your pockets where, um, you know, you have your neighborhoods and they’re definitely segregated. And then, you know, you get into why that is and red lining and all the stuff that goes on, especially in the bigger cities. And, uh, you know, you know, you’re back in Chicago, history, Cabrini green and the Robert Taylor homes and the way that those families were red lined and, um, you know, the, the one point that I, I wanted to really make with our players, Is, and I think this was important because I think as a moderator, you’re trying to get people to have a, of you can’t be buying right?

Like that, that right away takes away credibility. It’s no different than the people that argue CNN versus Fox news. Well, they’re both biased, so it’s hard to watch sometimes if you’re trying to be neutral. So like I wanted to make them understand that you can acknowledge that there’s systemic racism, um, that.

Police brutality with black men is an alarming rate comparatively to everyone else. Um, and also support police and be pro-police. And you can, you can acknowledge that black lives matter. The movement is a great thing and the protests are great and they’ve achieved so much in terms of bringing awareness about the cause and not support riding and understand and condemn that that’s wrong.

Like again, like. People think that you have to pick a side, you can acknowledge both. Like you can, you can be so tired of black men dying at the hands of the police that were unarmed, but also still support the police. You know, and I, I saw, I saw a quote one time, like unfortunately in a really, really hard job and incredibly difficult job.

It’s a job where you can’t have bad apples. You can’t. You can’t because people lose their lives because of it. And, uh, so like that was what I wanted to make clear. I was just like, this is a Venn diagram, right? Like we can all be in the middle. You can, you can want everything, you can support everything.

And now all of that, um, well this may be right. I can also, if now is that this is also wrong. Like, so that’s what I really wanted to push to our players and to just be open about it and that, like, we are going to talk about it. Like I kinda, I kind of used to be like, Hey, no politics guys. I don’t want to hear about it, but like, I guess if this is politics, then, then yeah.

We’re going to have to talk about it because it’s about human lives and, um,

Dan Blewett: yeah. And it, and it’s not about politics and that’s what’s unfortunately, I mean, it’s current news, but like with my letter that I wrote, I got a lot of angry emails back from my email list and most of them were. This is political.

Like, I don’t need to hear your political BS. I’m like not one thing about it was political. It’s not yeah. Where I came from, had nothing to do with it. But if you think. Being on this side means you’re this, you know, on this, your laughter, this having this opinion means you’re right. And I was like, look, what if, what if Democrats love pizza?

And I love pizza. Does that automatically make me a Democrat? Or, you know, if you love ice cream, you’re Republican. I love ice cream that makes me, like, that’s not a Republican opinion. It’s just like, it’s just an opinion, you know? And, and I think that’s, what’s unfortunate is all this stuff becomes politicized where it’s like, no, This seems more like a moral and just like a societal issue, not a political issue.

Ryan Copeland: Political.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. Yeah. It’s everything. Everything is political. So Saturday

Bobby Stevens: it’s like, um, you can’t, we, you can’t have an UN again, in an opinion that doesn’t lump you in with a certain

Dan Blewett: tribe. Yeah.

Bobby Stevens: Yeah. Overall thought process or you can’t, it’s just a, it’s almost impossible as much as you want to, like you can, in your small, in your groups, like amongst the team, it’s not going to be political.

Right. You’re just having conversation. Cause you’ve got different backgrounds on the team. I had to have conversations with all of our kids, mainly the high school kids, because they’re the ones that are, that are actually active on social media. Like they’re posting things they’re saying there. They’re reposting things.

They’re liking things on social media and my big action going overarching point to them was that the internet is permanent. You have, you know, believe what you guys want to believe. What you guys all grow up, come from different backgrounds. I go, just understand that whatever you post is going to be seen by everybody, and it’ll never go away.

I said that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t post it. I’m just telling you if this will, if this may affect you in 10 years from now. So. Take it for what it’s worth. I go, I’m not going to sit here and give you an tell you to think one way or the other. I said that you guys believe what you want to believe.

You’re all, you know, My big thing is if you have a smartphone, then you’re an adult. Like if you’re, if you’re

Dan Blewett: adults, it’s the worst policy ever, but that’s, I get that. I get what you mean, but that’s, that’s

Bobby Stevens: how I treat the high school kids. I was like, look, if you’re an adult enough to, to be interacting with basically all of society on your phone, then you have to be adult.

Dan Blewett: You have to be as daunting about it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. If you

Bobby Stevens: make your

Dan Blewett: make smart decisions, Steve is marvelous when you’re an adult and if your dog, you can own a gun and you can. Smoking, you could just drugs. Like, here you go. Here’s the whole package. Like you get your phone, you can get a box of guns.

Bobby Stevens: Honestly. It’s like some of these high school kids might know where to get all the, all the drugs and guns. Like

Dan Blewett: hopefully some of the adults,

Bobby Stevens: right. They’re just there. They’re in, they’re in touch with everybody. But yeah, if you have you, you can have, everything has been political politicized, even if it’s just amongst.

Uh, like a small group of friends, like it’s always one person that feels like it’s going to politicize it. Or I try not to talk politics, Dan and I will talk politics like on here, but I really don’t try and talk politics amongst my friends or family or anything. Cause I don’t want, nobody cares what I think.

And I don’t really want to hear anybody else’s ranting

Dan Blewett: about.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah, that’s the biggest, that’s the biggest problem. I don’t. I don’t know if I’m Facebook friends with you, Dan. Um, all I do is share, um, posts of dogs that need homes. Co-founded a dog rescue. So that, that that’s the extent of my Facebook posting and people maybe because of it they’re annoyed because I, you know, but like the, the amount of people that just can’t, they need to have their opinion

Dan Blewett: voiced.

Yeah,

Ryan Copeland: you just have to type it. They have to type it out at the post. It, Hey, it’s okay. If people don’t hear from you, it’s fine. I promise you. Nobody just like Bobby, like Eddie said, nobody cares about, about, you know, your opinion on politics. Nobody cares about mine either. I know that. So like myself.

Dan Blewett: Yeah.

I

Bobby Stevens: don’t know if you guys have a Dan, you’re not on Facebook. Are you,

Dan Blewett: are you on Facebook still? No, I am, but I unfollow every person and I never post ever. So if you’re faced with me, I don’t see any of your stuff. I see. Literally I have no feed. I haven’t posted a personal post unless it accidentally auto posts from like a piece of content, but I don’t post anything personally.

Bobby Stevens: So there’s like on Facebook there’s groups. Like I live in, I live in a neighborhood called Bucktown in Chicago. Right. You’re probably familiar. So like, there’s like Bucktown committee, you watch. So I’m like in this group, like, you know, you want to see what’s going on and it’s just people posting ridiculous things that happen to them.

Like I went to the gas station and he was rude to me. And they post it and then it gets 200 comments and it’s just like, Oh,

Dan Blewett: well,

Bobby Stevens: nobody cares.

Ryan Copeland: Like nobody cares what? It’s like an update. It’s just

Bobby Stevens: how people interact now. So why

Dan Blewett: don’t you post it? Yeah, they

Bobby Stevens: post it and it’s, it’s constantly. It’s great.

Great entertainment. I’ll screenshot you guys.

Dan Blewett: Yeah, love would love it. Um, so Ryan, do you have new, any new policies going forward with your team? Like what’s like been like the, the action plan going

Ryan Copeland: forward. Yeah. So I think, uh, w we’ll make an effort to have formal conversations, um, you know, throughout the semester where we actually sit down and we talk about certain, certain issues.

And, um, I would like for us to be much more involved with the diversity center on campus. And, um, again, it’s just all about getting different perspectives and in listening to people and enlisting to try to understand, not listen, to try to respond. And, uh, I think that’s really, really important. And, uh, yeah, I D I just want to have a team that.

Um, kind of re reflects, um, what we’re all trying to accomplish and be better people and be more understanding of everything. And, um, and I think you can’t do that if you don’t talk about it. So, um, and if you were just a year ago, if I would’ve heard conversations about this type of this type of thing going on in the dugout, it would’ve been a little off to me, a little weird.

Um, but it, I needed to be, um, I need to be aware of things going on within our team as well. Um, because there’s certainly things that happen and within a group of guys and, uh, I want to be, I want to be on the, on the forefront of that in our, in our community. And, uh, you know, I think, you know, my girlfriend has taken a,

Dan Blewett: uh,

Ryan Copeland: An incredible lead with some of that stuff.

And some of the things that she’s done, um, especially for our black student athletes here on campus. Um, she, she works, she works in our department and, uh, um, being able to learn from her and understand the things that she’s doing to try to make change. As been incredibly moving. So I’m certainly, I’m a, I’m in the position where I can learn a lot naturally, you know, just about every single night that we’re together, but, uh, just, just trying to push through and trying to get better and better and better.

And let guys like guys, um, share their thoughts and, and have that dialogue. And it never let it go away. Cause, uh, I think we have a, we have a, we have an issue with that and in this country where things happen, we react. It’s the talk or the, just the talk of the town for a while cycle, a weeks, the news cycle.

And then it goes away and everyone goes back into the normal lives. And like, we can’t let that happen if we want to make actual change.

Dan Blewett: Yeah. It’s a man. It’s, it’s, it’s been an interesting year. I mean, so much going on with COVID all the protests. Um, and like you said, like the reactionary stuff, like, I mean, to your point about being able to support everyone, like I see when I was in DC.

Wandering around, through all of it. And of course it was like every day, very close. Like there’s, you know, like, sorry, I’d say all cops are pigs, all cops are evil. It’s like, that’s clearly not true. Like, there’s a lot of cops that do a lot for people. And there’s a lot of black cops too. Like it, like, people just want to jump to one side and that’s unfortunate where there’s just like, There’s a lot of angles to all of it.

If you’re trying to make good decisions, caring about other people, then that seems to be all that you really, I need to like eventually get where you want to go. Just like making good decisions with other people’s best interests at heart. You know, then he was everybody. Cause like the whole defund, the police thing, it seems like I don’t know what that even means.

Like there’s lots of different stuff, but it’s all just a big conversation. Try to figure out what is best for everybody.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. Yeah. Dan, one thing that I’ve been trying to do, and certainly now with the Kobe climate we’re in with the restrictions, but, um, I’ve always wanted to run a voluntary youth camp.

Um, Inner city st. Louis inner city, Chicago, and go into their neighborhoods and come with a bunch of college coaches. And maybe this is something that down the road you can help me with. And Bobby helped me with, but just like you run a showcase camp and you know, you’ve got 15 college coaches there and their gear, um, go do that same thing.

And the inner cities, right? Chicago st. Louis, Kansas city, Indianapolis. Um, go, go get those communities too, to understand that they can play baseball and we can help them play baseball. Uh, yeah. One thing that we’ve kind of touched on a little bit, uh, that we didn’t get into was the lack of, of black baseball players in the major leagues.

And that starts with the neighborhoods. They just, they don’t have the setup. They don’t have the resources and, and that’s not okay. Um, so that’s always something I wanted to do. So keep that, keep that in your mind. And maybe we can figure something out and I think that’d be really, really cool and special.

And, uh, you have to give back to, um, a different community, right? Like I’ll get back to a different community. We always talk about doing things for the community, but sometimes like you said, it’s in our own bubble and it’s where we feel comfortable. What’s, let’s be uncomfortable and go do something that maybe five, 10 years ago, we would never even thought about doing.

Dan Blewett: Yeah, it’s a swing. You mentioned that cause in, in DC, there’s the nationals youth Academy, which is in a rough area. Um, to the point a girl I was talking to who used to work for the national  on one of their first days open, like someone was murdered. Very close to the grounds. And since then, I think they’ve been open eight or 10 years.

And I, I sent them an email a little while ago asking him like, what kind of like volunteer opportunities they have. But they said that like that place is slow, really transformed to like a protected space in that, in that really rough area where people know like, Hey, if there’s people coming to go to the youth Academy, You leave them alone.

Like they’re here to help our community. And it’s just like done such good for that, that, that spot in DC. Um, and just like one of the lower income areas. So you definitely see that it makes a big difference, just good kids having structure. And they do lots of like outreach programs and a lot of educational stuff in addition to baseball stuff there.

But, um, I mean, I just heard so many glowing stories about what they’ve done. It’s just been a really special place. I know Ian Desmond talked about that in his, uh, Instagram posts where he was talking about his experience, um, with racism. Cause he, I known was working when he was with the nationals with, uh, with a young man who was then shot to death at like age 13, a kid who couldn’t read, who was then making such progress and then was murdered in his own community.

It’s just like those kids really need help. And. And they need that, like you said, systemic change and people to put themselves out there and to help make that happen. Yeah,

Ryan Copeland: for sure.

Dan Blewett: That’s that’s crazy. So, um, Ryan, man, we appreciate you being on the show. We covered a lot of good stuff today. Uh, how can people follow up with you and your program and, and where would you like to direct people or any last, uh, sentiments to share.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah. Um, obviously we’re, we’re pretty active on social media. Um, you know, where you can follow us on Twitter at, uh, you know, baseball underscore UIs we’re on Facebook, we’re on Instagram and, uh, you know, we’re, we’re trying to get ready for a normal fall here. Our guys will return to campus next week and yeah.

Um, so far, so far we’re, or we think we’re going to be able to practice and we would canceled out to like competition and, um, which, which stinks for our guys. We were supposed to, to Illinois state go to Southern Illinois. But, um, yeah, we’re trying to do it. Yes, we can. We will have weekly testing here on campus.

So we’re very, very fortunate to be able to be funded for that. So hopefully we can keep all of our, all of our players, all of our staff, all of our students safe. Um, We are having our annual golf outing, um, for all you golfers, uh, September 26th. Um, and at the rail, uh, in Sherman, Illinois, it’s actually a PGA course, um, way back when, so pretty cool.

Um, $250 for, for some 75 for an individual golfer. Super affordable. That’s on the very low end of prices for golf. So, um, for any listeners that are interested in that, it’s not just an alumni event, that’s a, that’s just a, a UIs baseball. You want to come out, you want to golf, you want to be around that, the program we’d love to have you.

And, uh, Dan, thank you as always, always a pleasure talking to you. We probably don’t talk enough. Um, I know we always have good conversations and, uh, you know, Bobby, thank you for having me on and, uh, I, you still with windy city. Yeah.

Bobby Stevens: Oh yeah.

Dan Blewett: Bobby, Bobby windy city. The

Ryan Copeland: brands.

Bobby Stevens: No, I know you talked to, uh, our pitching guy in our 17 new ag Corey a lot.

Ryan Copeland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s players. So we’ll keep reaching out

Bobby Stevens: for anyone listening. If you don’t know anything about UIs baseball, you should take note. I mean, that’s what I would consider the premier division two program, definitely in the Midwest, if not the country, where do you guys. A project this year, as far as ranking wise, did they come out with any preseason?

Ryan Copeland: I’m not sure. Not sure where we’ll be at, you know, I like to think we’re usually in the top 25 there and, um, yeah, we’re, uh, you know, the, the work that’s been put into this program from 2011 when the first year of the program’s inception, um, to where we are now, not just with, uh, facilities and, you know, So the recognition we’ve gotten for some really, really good season.

I’m very, very proud of that. And yeah, uh, it wouldn’t happen without the people around our program. You know, I think you surround yourself with really, really good people and it really, really good things happen. Um, we get a lot of credit as a coaching staff are doing a great job. The reality is, is, uh, we have really, really good players and, uh, A lot of really, really good young man that do a great job.

Do you? Everything we asked to and, um, yeah, I think sometimes people feel like we’re, I’m at campus today. And I mentioned, Hey, you know, we’ve had, we’ve had six guys in the last three years, put in a couple of signings, um, be signed by an affiliated MLB team or be drafted. And I think people step back and they’re like, what?

Six and three years. Yeah. It’s

Dan Blewett: a lot. Yeah.

Ryan Copeland: That’s a lot for school. Yeah. And, uh, And we’ve done it all kind of, uh, on, on our own, down here in central Illinois with, uh, uh, probably as little as possible. Um, like to this day, right now, we still don’t have electricity in our field. Um, and, and we’ve won 40 games and on average in each of the last three years.

And, um, I love the, uh, everyone talks about culture, just like you hear about development, right? Those, those, those words,

Dan Blewett: elites, culture, and development. Yeah.

Ryan Copeland: I try to avoid them. Um, But I’m just so proud of our environment. Our players just never make excuses. And that comes from hopefully that the top down that, um, doesn’t matter what we don’t have.

Um, we focus on what we do have and, uh, That some really, really good baseball players that really, really care about what they do. And, and hopefully we’re doing our job as a coaching staff to make sure we’re putting them in the best position possible. Um, if you’re about getting better, if you’re about getting from point a to point B, um, you know, point B a as a guy ceiling, um, I think we should be an option for anybody in the Midwest.

And, uh, certainly we get told no a lot more than we get told yesterday. We’re recruiting because we’re going to go try to recruit with the big boys and, uh, No again, we get told no a lot, but, uh, we have really, really good players. And in turn, I think people think you’re pretty good at your job, which a fair, fair, unfair, who knows.

But, um, yeah, I’m really, really proud of what we’ve done here. Um, you know, my former boss really set the foundation for, for our program and, uh, you know, again, uh, Really, really appreciative of you guys having me on and then having this conversation, I think, uh, hopefully they’re interesting to listen to and give some people some insight into you guys.

And I know UIs baseball myself, and of course, some of the things that we just covered, that probably a little more important than baseball as well.

Dan Blewett: Yeah, absolutely. Bob, you want to send us out? Yeah, Ryan,

Bobby Stevens: thanks for coming on. Always welcome back. We’ll catch everybody on the next episode of morning. Brush back.

Thanks.